Alignment-Toe Qs.

[STALKER]

I'm getting an alignment done tomorrow.
I know what sort of camber Im looking for, but Im still unsure about the toe. Some say that 0 toe is the way to go if its a daily driven car, or use 1/8 or 1/16th toe in.

Any suggestions, and what is the logic behind the suggestion.

Im having the work done at Kinetic Motorsport, they know their M3s, said they will discuss specs with me in the morning when I show up.
http://www.kssmotorsports.com/index.aspx

UPDATE. Had the alignment done this morning. The tech gave me a little toe out in the front.
What an amazing facility!!!! Kinetic Motorsport is serious place, full fabrication, engine dyno, engine builds, body shop and I lost track of how many race cars I saw there. 2 full spec E92 M3, 1 E46 M, 1 E36 M3 race cars, plus half a dozen Pcars. They run Kia's race program also. Was really interesting to take the tour and see how their programs run. They most have had 25 to 30 lifts alone, new Hunter alignment machine, and all sorts of goodies.

Needless to say, the car is handling great and was enjoyable morning.

[Yorgi]

Toe should be zero in the front and 1/8 toe-in at the rear.

At the front toe-in makes the car want to go straight. It makes turn-in slower, causes tire wear and more understeer. Toe-out makes the car turn on a dime but also causes tire wear and tramlining.

You want toe-in at the rear for stability. The car tends to spin if you go zero or toe-out at the rear.

[STALKER]

Toe should be zero in the front and 1/8 toe-in at the rear.

At the front toe-in makes the car want to go straight. It makes turn-in slower, causes tire wear and more understeer. Toe-out makes the car turn on a dime but also causes tire wear and tramlining.

You want toe-in at the rear for stability. The car tends to spin if you go zero or toe-out at the rear.

Thanks Rick.

[330DTM]

Toe should be zero in the front and 1/8 toe-in at the rear.

At the front toe-in makes the car want to go straight. It makes turn-in slower, causes tire wear and more understeer. Toe-out makes the car turn on a dime but also causes tire wear and tramlining.

You want toe-in at the rear for stability. The car tends to spin if you go zero or toe-out at the rear.

I went in for a wheel alignment today at EA. I gave them the setup that I wanted which is the below.

F: -2.5 camber, toe = 0
R: -1.5 to -1.7 camber, toe in = 1/8

As I was listing out the specs, he asked me who gave me the camber & toe numbers and I told him from what forum members (not just here but Bimmerforums in the track section) have suggested. Then he says they don't know what they're talking about.

I told him I wanted a setup that can be used for track and street, obviously geared more towards street so I was willing to make the compromise for track performance (but at least better than OEM settings). But he shut me down telling me there's no such thing as a setup for both. He scribbled my numbers and said if I want a track setup, they will set it up for me rather than using my numbers.

At this point I wanted to just walk out. I know they're very experienced, but who is he to tell me my numbers don't make sense, when other experienced track/auto-x Bimmerforums guys have used it and made a sticky thread out of it? I actually ended up walking out because I didn't have my tires ready for my track wheels (on my oem tires & wheels now) and he said I may as wait till then otherwise I would be wasting my money to get an alignment done twice.

[STALKER]

I went in for a wheel alignment today at EA. I gave them the setup that I wanted which is the below.

F: -2.5 camber, toe = 0
R: -1.5 to -1.7 camber, toe in = 1/8

As I was listing out the specs, he asked me who gave me the camber & toe numbers and I told him from what forum members (not just here but Bimmerforums in the track section) have suggested. Then he says they don't know what they're talking about.

I told him I wanted a setup that can be used for track and street, obviously geared more towards street so I was willing to make the compromise for track performance (but at least better than OEM settings). But he shut me down telling me there's no such thing as a setup for both. He scribbled my numbers and said if I want a track setup, they will set it up for me rather than using my numbers.

At this point I wanted to just walk out. I know they're very experienced, but who is he to tell me my numbers don't make sense, when other experienced track/auto-x Bimmerforums guys have used it and made a sticky thread out of it? I actually ended up walking out because I didn't have my tires ready for my track wheels (on my oem tires & wheels now) and he said I may as wait till then otherwise I would be wasting my money to get an alignment done twice.

I had mine done a few days ago Kinetic Motorsport, they are a real race shop. I suggested some settings, they asked me some questions, and just said they will take care of it with what they think is best.

[330DTM]

I had mine done a few days ago Kinetic Motorsport, they are a real race shop. I suggested some settings, they asked me some questions, and just said they will take care of it with what they think is best.

Fair enough, but the thing that baffled me was how he said putting on a new set of tires will change your alignment significantly. Well, that sounds ridiculous; that means people who change their street and track tires will always have their alignment off for street or track. Several people have told me changing tires won't affect your alignment, but only if it's changing the suspension components.

I checked Kinetic's website, but it appears they're located in the states?

What were your settings in the end?

[STALKER]

Fair enough, but the thing that baffled me was how he said putting on a new set of tires will change your alignment significantly. Well, that sounds ridiculous; that means people who change their street and track tires will always have their alignment off for street or track. Several people have told me changing tires won't affect your alignment, but only if it's changing the suspension components.

I checked Kinetic's website, but it appears they're located in the states?

What were your settings in the end?
Who did you talk to there?
I use EA all the time and they do the best alignment I have had. Im surprised they gave you such a hard time and the tire/wheel issue is BS to me.
Kinetic is in the US.

[330DTM]

Who did you talk to there?
I use EA all the time and they do the best alignment I have had. Im surprised they gave you such a hard time and the tire/wheel issue is BS to me.
Kinetic is in the US.

I didn't get his name, but he was an elderly gentleman around his 50s-60s? Must be because I look young and he thinks I know nothing. I just need a setup that's a little more aggressive than street, but not for dedicated track. It seems that he can't accept that.

[STALKER]

I didn't get his name, but he was an elderly gentleman around his 50s-60s? Must be because I look young and he thinks I know nothing. I just need a setup that's a little more aggressive than street, but not for dedicated track. It seems that he can't accept that.

Might have been Rob.

[Yorgi]

I've been hearing a few EA stories along these lines lately, telling the customer they have no clue what they are talking about.

The alignment settings you asked for are close to the generally accepted best combined street/track setup for an E46. There is such a thing. You are aiming for the most aggressive track setup you can get away with that won't cause extremely rapid tire wear during street use. It's not that complicated of a concept. To tell someone "there is no such thing" is nuts.

A true track setup is a completely different ball game. For starters you probably want toe-out up front which kills tires. For camber the only way you can be 100% sure what is best for any particular car is to measure tire temps at the track. Even then you may not like the best camber setting for even tire temps due to handling issues. Every car will be different and every track will require different settings. Optimum camber settings for track rubber also varies widely from tire model to tire model.

[glenspeed]

Changing tires theoretically doesn't change settings, but because the machines are so sensitive, they may make the car sit slightly different is the only reason I can see someone saying that. The alignment lasers are clamped on to the wheel so has nothing to do with the tire.

[webbie]

Some tires require different camber because of the grip. I have seen some cars running hossier using-3.5 degree vs same car running R888 using -2.5 maybe -3.

But hey, we are not talking about ALMS series where every 0.00001 sec count. Every choice is a compromise. And I just told PCV to check out EA http://www.e46toronto.ca/forums/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif

[STALKER]

I have used EA many times over the past 5 years, and Im generally very happy with their service.