Brake pad comparison chart

[glenspeed]

[chart updated 9/01/06]
Courtesy of Yorgi's post in a previous thread, I thought it would be a good reference here. I've updated the chart a bit as well: :thumbsup:

Only organic pads gas, and the only popular organic pad I know of are AXXIS Deluxe.

Pagid pads are Carbon-Metallic and don't gas, so someone is smoking crack. Friction wise, Pagid Orange is the same as blue when cold but better once hot. Both are only medium-high torque when hot.

If you go for Ferodo DS3000 in the front you should be very happy with the torque. It's an insanely high 0.62, which is the highest I've ever seen along with the Williams F1 pads. Just check to see if they have problems with hot particles screwing up your paint. In my notes I have "paint killer" beside the DS3000.

Here are some brake pad figures:

note: where there is a subjective indicator of CoFr, take them as relative to the brand for comparison purposes

[edited by glenspeed] deleted table to simplify reference to one post.

[Yorgi]

[UPDATED 2010/01/28] Here is an update. I'll add more later.

I've also added a "Paint Killer" column that indicates the pads either have dust that sticks like powder-coating if it gets wet, or they give off glowing embers that will pit your car and wheel paint. If there is a Y in this column I would strongly discourage you from using these on anything other than a race car.

Note, Hawk does not publish CoEff of Friction numbers since they think they are misleading.

Price for M3 should be about the same for 330Ci. Price is for font + rear unless noted.

----------------------USD F&R-----Coefficient-Fade-----Paint----Rotor
Pad-------------------for M3------of Friction-Temp°F---Killer?--Wear
AXXIS Deluxe-----------$86--------??-----------716-------N------Very Low
AXXIS Ultimate--------$128--------0.46---------932-------N------Low
Carbotech Panther-----$273--------0.54--------1250-------N------??
Carbotech XP8---------$311--------0.58--------1350-------N------??
Carbotech XP9---------$311--------0.60--------1400-------N------Low
Carbotech XP10--------$343--------0.60+-------1600-------N------??
Carbotech XP11--------$343--------0.60++------1600+------N------??
Ferodo DS2500---------$288 -------0.50--------1000-------N------Low
Ferodo DS3000---------$404 -------0.62--------1382-------Y------Extreme when Cold
Hawk Blue-------------$285--------Medium------1100-------Y------Low Hot, Extreeme Cold
Hawk HT-10------------$337--------High--------1400-------N------Moderate
Hawk HT-14------------$189Front---Very High---1600-------N------Moderate/High
Hawk DTC-70-----------$224Front---High--------???--------?------?
Mintex Xtreme---------$????-------0.5-0.55----1300-------N------Moderate
PF97------------------$248Front---Med High----2000-------Y------Low
PF01------------------$455--------Very High---2000-------N------Very Low
Pagid Blue------------$377--------0.49--------1202-------N------??
Pagid Orange RS4-4----$377--------0.53--------1292-------N------Very Low
Pagid Black RS14------$397--------0.54--------1472-------N------Low
Pagid DrkBlu RS4-2-1--$311--------0.45---------932-------N------Low
Pagid Grey RS15-------$465--------0.62--------1652-------N------??
Pagid Yellow RS19-----$429--------0.49--------1382-------N------Low
Porterfield R4--------$340--------0.50--------????-------N------High
Williams F1.10--------$320--------0.62--------1760-------N------??

[Santiago]

Great info. I modified the table to use a uniform spaced font.

[edited by glenspeed] deleted table just to keep it simple for reference.

[Yorgi]

Doh! Why did I not think of that. Forgot we can change fonts. Santi you are a genius. :yourmyido

I will add a few more columns now that we can do fixed fonts. Also, there is a typo, FP79 should be High CoFr and PF91 Very High.

[STALKER]

Rick, I noticed you have the DS3000 listed as a paint killer, where did you get that info, need to check it out.

[Yorgi]

Rick, I noticed you have the DS3000 listed as a paint killer, where did you get that info, need to check it out.
I got it from my spreadsheet. I do not put notes like "paint killer" in my spreadsheet unless I find more than one source confirming this. Most of my info comes from various racing forums.

Do a google on DS3000 and paint and you will find many examples of this pad destroying wheels.

Here is an example, see posts 8 and 10: http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=29250&goto=nextoldest

[BMWHP]

Great info Yorgi makes it much easier to see the differences between compounds.It would be nice if we could add some sort of rating to show which pads dust the most and least.

[STALKER]

I got it from my spreadsheet. I do not put notes like "paint killer" in my spreadsheet unless I find more than one source confirming this. Most of my info comes from various racing forums.

Do a google on DS3000 and paint and you will find many examples of this pad destroying wheels.

Here is an example, see posts 8 and 10: http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=29250&goto=nextoldest
Maybe I should rething the DS3000 then.

[alexm520]

Here is an example, see posts 8 and 10: http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=29250&goto=nextoldest

I fully trust Yorgi's research but at the same time, not sure if I would write off DS3000 completely.

As far as the above thread, it starts off asking about DS3000 but then the discussion switches to DS25000. By Post 8 and 10, it appears they are talking about DS2500 only.....

Post #5 Hugh mentions both DS2500 and DS3000. He talks about the warped disk caused by DS2500 [this is important because Post #10 refers to a warped disk also]
"My experience on track dyas is that DS2500 on AP 247mm discs + 6 pots was downright dangerous - no pedal after 2 and a bit laps of knockhill and warped the discs."

Post #6 Peter comments on Hugh's experience with DS2500, and then recaps his own with DS2500.

Post #8 Hugh replies to Peter's Post #6 (which talks about DS2500) ... and through the rest of Post #8 he continues to describe DS2500 only (DS3000 is not mentioned once).

I find especially entertaining the following comment:
Compare that to a few laps with DS2500 that melted Stove Enamelling, you could not have touched the rim without burning your hands.

Post #10 (Stew-s). By the time we get to Post #10, he is quoting Hugh's post #8 (which appears to be talking about DS2500). The fact that Stew mentions his rotors were NOT warped is another example he is referring to DS2500 warped rotors in Hugh's Post #5.
On the other hand DS2500 has never removed any paint from my street or track rims, so I cannot agree with his statement.


Hugh does mention an important point in Post #8:
As Peter says, funny how we have seen different results.....(about DS2500)

Here is something about DS3000
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=900045&postcount=3


And lastly from our local forum ...
http://www.e46toronto.ca/forums/showpost.php?p=46321&postcount=71
http://www.e46toronto.ca/forums/showpost.php?p=42306&postcount=35

Go figure :confused:

[STALKER]

Well I have nothing but good things to say about the DS2500.
I'll check out those links Alex, thanks.

[Yorgi]

Well I have nothing but good things to say about the DS2500.
I'll check out those links Alex, thanks.I've not heard anything bad about the DS2500 either. It seems like a very good dual purpose pad.

The example thread I gave above about the DS3000 is a little hard to follow, but I am pretty sure the 2 guys mentioning foked paint are talking about the DS3000 since it is a well know paint killer. I do not have time at the moment to find examples, but there are countless accounts of the DS3000 screwing up wheels. It’s up there with the Hawk Blues if not worse. When 3 or 4 guys in different forums mention a pad screwed up their rims, I take that pad off my list of acceptable DE pads. Some pads NEVER get a bad rap for their dust, which is a requirement of mine when selecting a pad.

I have dust, squeal, rotor wear and pad longevity info in my spreadsheet which I will add to the chart later. This info is a lot more subjective but I really try to get the general consensus by ignoring marketing info and the opinions of obvious n00bs, and adding weight to opinions of drivers that have tried many pads.

[STALKER]

I've not heard anything bad about the DS2500 either. It seems like a very good dual purpose pad.

The example thread I gave above about the DS3000 is a little hard to follow, but I am pretty sure the 2 guys mentioning foked paint are talking about the DS3000 since it is a well know paint killer. I do not have time at the moment to find examples, but there are countless accounts of the DS3000 screwing up wheels. It’s up there with the Hawk Blues if not worse. When 3 or 4 guys in different forums mention a pad screwed up their rims, I take that pad off my list of acceptable DE pads. Some pads NEVER get a bad rap for their dust, which is a requirement of mine when selecting a pad.

I have dust, squeal, rotor wear and pad longevity info in my spreadsheet which I will add to the chart later. This info is a lot more subjective but I really try to get the general consensus by ignoring marketing info and the opinions of obvious n00bs, and adding weight to opinions of drivers that have tried many pads.
I need to get a set of pads for the fronts, was set of the DS3000, but gonna have to look at all my options again.

[glenspeed]

I see now Carbotech has come out with XP11's :eek:

[BMWHP]

Anyone have experience with the Carbotech XP10?..They don't make the XP9 anymore so I was thinking of trying the XP10.

Do you think I would be able to use them for both street and track use?

TIA

[Yorgi]

If you want to use the pads as dual purpose I would recommend the XP8, and only if you don't mind brake squeal.

All Carbotechs are very easy on rotors for a track pad and work fine when cold, but they do squeal like a pig.

The XP10 is a very aggressive pad, even by track pad standards. It is probably one of the top 3 most torquey pads available. I was using XP9s and was going try the XP10 next but now that I have a BBK I don't think I will go that aggressive. I'll probably stick to XP8 next since I am finding the Ultimates combined with BBK and cooling is fine.

I am a very late braker and like to have the option of locking up even at 160kph, so if you think you want a pad that takes finesse (ie a very light touch on the brake pedal or you’ll get lockup) then go for the XP10, but I would switch those out for the street.

[BMWHP]

Thanks for the info Yorgi...When I talked to Carbotech about the XP8 for my M3 they said that compound would not work well on my car for track use because of the weight of the vehicle he highly recommended the XP10 for my car since the XP9 is discontinued.

I'm going to talk to them again this week and see what they say.

[STALKER]

I have been using Ferrodo DS2500 track and street, they are awesome!!!

[glenspeed]

new (for BMW's) Hawk race pad out on the market:

Hawk DTC-70 (DTC= Dynamic Torque Control fwiw)
"is their newest race compound with an average level of friction among the highest currently available and an incredibly linear pressure to torque relationship. The result is a pad that gives the driver an unparalleled ability to modulate brake torque at the limit of tire adhesion, while keeping pedal effort low. Relatively low rotor and pad wear rates for such an aggressive pad."


reference chart updated.

[STALKER]

Ferodo DS3000 prices have dropped a little, just putting the info out there.

[STALKER]

Anyone used the new pagid RS 4-2-1 for everday? I heard good things. Might work well in the rear with Padig Orange pads in the front.

[webbie]

The 4-2-1 is also known as the Pagid Sport Black (they changed colors to prevent confusion) and is primarily a high-performance street pad.

The 4-2 is the Blue which is a race pad, albeit streetable.
I found this on another site. Since you are using DS2500 and ran Sebring, I don't think 4-2-1 would be good enough for you on the track.

[STALKER]

I was just putting the info out there. Im very happy with my DS2500, but at Sebring, if I had a more agrressive pad up front, would have been nice, but then again, I had street tires.
I would love to get DS3000s for the front, as they would work great with the DS2500 out back, but I get mixed info about them being corrosive, so Im not willing to take that chance.

[glenspeed]

I'm surprised with your BBK you need a more aggressive pad?

[STALKER]

I'm surprised with your BBK you need a more aggressive pad?
At Sebring they would have been nice.
Shannonville, can break later. But its not a biggy at Shannonville cause my pedal is firm all day.

[webbie]

Glen, can you add this to your master chart.


Pagid 4-2-1 Black---------???-----------0.45--------1022----------N
Pagid Grey----------------???-----------0.62--------1652----------N
Pagid Yellow--------------???-----------0.49--------1382----------N

[STALKER]

Glen, can you add this to your master chart.


Pagid 4-2-1 Black---------???-----------0.45--------1022----------N
Pagid Grey----------------???-----------0.62--------1652----------N
Pagid Yellow--------------???-----------0.49--------1382----------N
you gonna run them in the Pcar, I hear they are popular with you guys. I also heard that Pagids can cause some brake judder from Dave Z.
Are the 4-2-1s dusty? Good street pad, then you can change the fronts to Oranges.

[webbie]

I bought Pagid Yellow already and the car is still on the boat. hmm...call me freak.

From what I gathered, Yellow is easy on the rotor, can be used both on street and track.
It will squeel a little on the road, but all you need to do is bedding in again and they will STFU.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=309964

[STALKER]

I bought Pagid Yellow already and the car is still on the boat. hmm...call me freak.

From what I gathered, Yellow is easy on the rotor, can be used both on street and track.
It will squeel a little on the road, but all you need to do is bedding in again and they will STFU.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=309964
I would look at the DS2500 too then if you are looking for dual purpose, but to late i guess.

[Yorgi]

I've updated my spreadsheet in post #2. A few new columns and a few new pads.

[edited by glenspeed] hope you don't mind I corrected the PF one's as they are not Hawks...

[STALKER]

I bought Pagid Yellow already and the car is still on the boat. hmm...call me freak.

From what I gathered, Yellow is easy on the rotor, can be used both on street and track.
It will squeel a little on the road, but all you need to do is bedding in again and they will STFU.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=309964
Peter,
Why did you get the Yellows over the Pagid Orange?
Im flirting with getting Pagid oranges, but not sure if they can be used on the street.

[webbie]

Basically Yellow has a high max temp and working consistantly from cold to hot. They cost more but last longer too.

http://www.pagidusa.com/frict-temp-graph.jpg

You can see initial bite of Orange is not as good as Yellow when cold and friction varies a lot from cold to hot.

[STALKER]

I read the Yellow was bad on the street, guess that article was wrong then. Thanks.

[webbie]

It squeal like a pig. But bedding in again will fix it. It is easy to swap it out anyway.

[STALKER]

It squeal like a pig. But bedding in again will fix it. It is easy to swap it out anyway.
Im looking for track pads, I will take a look at the RS19s. Thanks Peter.

[glenspeed]

Im looking for track pads, I will take a look at the RS19s. Thanks Peter.

keep in mind you may not need as an agressive pad since you have BBK's. Yorgi said even with street pads, the fade on his BBK's was almost non-existent compared to stock brakes/rotors.

for me and when Yorgi was on stock brakes, a much higher coefficient of friction and temperature range was needed to keep up the braking power.

[STALKER]

Im still doing my research, so we see what I come up with.
I have to see how much life I have left in my DS2500, I went to Sebring 2X with them.
?????????????????????

[STALKER]

Im still doing my research, so we see what I come up with.
I have to see how much life I have left in my DS2500, I went to Sebring 2X with them.
?????????????????????
??????????????????
:Idunno: :cool:

[Yorgi]

Considering you have rotors that cost about 4X the price of a set of pads, I would put rotor wear up there as my #1 consideration when choosing pads.

With ducting I ran AXXIS Ultimates with no pad transfer problems and amazingly low pad wear on my front StopTechs. Before the StopTechs almost every pad I tried would have at least a little pad transfer issue.

My top pick is still the Carbotech XP9. Then maybe Pagid Orange and the DS2500 is fine too.

If I did not have a BBK then I would go for XP10, Hawk HT-10, PF01 or maybe Pagid Grey. I like very grabby brakes though where most people would prefer less torquey pads.

[glenspeed]

I just bought some PFC01's. After June 29th, I'll let you guys know how they are.

and Rick, holy smoly, back from the dead! nice to have you back.

[STALKER]

Considering you have rotors that cost about 4X the price of a set of pads, I would put rotor wear up there as my #1 consideration when choosing pads.

With ducting I ran AXXIS Ultimates with no pad transfer problems and amazingly low pad wear on my front StopTechs. Before the StopTechs almost every pad I tried would have at least a little pad transfer issue.

My top pick is still the Carbotech XP9. Then maybe Pagid Orange and the DS2500 is fine too.

If I did not have a BBK then I would go for XP10, Hawk HT-10, PF01 or maybe Pagid Grey. I like very grabby brakes though where most people would prefer less torquey pads.
I actually got another set of DS2500. My front set was toast after Cayuga. Good pad, but take a beating at Shannonville and Cayuga this year so far.

[alexm520]

I used Ferodo DS3000 on the front last year at Cayuga during the Exotic Lapping day. Fantastic pad, as all reviews I read, and like everyone using it for the first time, way over braked. Washed the track rims at Cayuga and swapped back to DS2500 there (dust came off no problem at all). Looking forward to using it at one of the big tracks this year.

The beauty of this setup is that I can still use DS2500 from my daily driving if I am lazy to change to DS3000, and it would still be okay at the track (after all, we are not racing for money :D ), but after experiencing DS3000 its hard to go back to DS2500 at the track.

Another good news, I found out this year that DS2500 is now available for 330 rear (finally) :thumbsup: I am in the process of ordering a full DS2500 set just to have it ready.


Alex

[STALKER]

Im always scared of the DS3000 cause of the stories I hear about paint and wheel damage.

[alexm520]

Im always scared of the DS3000 cause of the stories I hear about paint and wheel damage.


Hi Stalker,

Yes, I have read all of them also, plus TONS of praises how fantastic this pad and lots of people continue to use them.

If I did not liked DS2500 so much or planned to switch to another street pad, I may not have tried DS3000. But with DS2500 on the street, DS3000 is the next best/logical step for anyone wanting to swap to the race pad at the track (and stay with the same type of compound).

The general consensus, is that the corrosive brake dust - whether from DS3000 or any other race pads, is only an issue if it becomes wet OR possibly if you leave it for a long time (like a week or so). If the brake dust is dry and you clean/wash rims the same or next day there are no issues.

Plus for me personally, I have dedicated track rims (BBS RK) that I bought used at a very good price, so I am not too worried about them (at absolute worst case scenario, refinishing two of them would be inexpensive, and realistically will not be required. I normally clean/wash my track rims at the end of track day anyway).

Keep also in mind that you don't want to use this or any other "strong" race pad with street tires.

There are lots of good race pads and each one has PROs and CONs. Each driver has to decide which pros and cons are acceptable for their car setup.


Alex

[glenspeed]

the PFC01 are supposed to be paint friendly...

[STALKER]

Hi Stalker,

Yes, I have read all of them also, plus TONS of praises how fantastic this pad and lots of people continue to use them.

If I did not liked DS2500 so much or planned to switch to another street pad, I may not have tried DS3000. But with DS2500 on the street, DS3000 is the next best/logical step for anyone wanting to swap to the race pad at the track (and stay with the same type of compound).

The general consensus, is that the corrosive brake dust - whether from DS3000 or any other race pads, is only an issue if it becomes wet OR possibly if you leave it for a long time (like a week or so). If the brake dust is dry and you clean/wash rims the same or next day there are no issues.

Plus for me personally, I have dedicated track rims (BBS RK) that I bought used at a very good price, so I am not too worried about them (at absolute worst case scenario, refinishing two of them would be inexpensive, and realistically will not be required. I normally clean/wash my track rims at the end of track day anyway).

Keep also in mind that you don't want to use this or any other "strong" race pad with street tires.

There are lots of good race pads and each one has PROs and CONs. Each driver has to decide which pros and cons are acceptable for their car setup.


Alex
Thanks for the write up. My RAC RS110s are my track wheels now too. The reason I hear they can damage paint is that they are a cintered(I think I spelt that right??) pad. I talked to Dave Z about them a while ago. For now the DS2500 are doing the trick for me. When I get some more talent, then I will move up.

[alexm520]

the PFC01 are supposed to be paint friendly...

Hi Glen,

Yes, from what I read they are suppose to be paint/rim friendly. But, that's just one of several considerations when choosing the best overall street/track pad combo for individual use ....

> is there a good matching front street pad for PFC01? Are the street ones quiet, low dust and good braking performance for street use?
PFC01 are ceramic pads and generally it is not recommended to mix ceramic ones with non-ceramic.

> is there a good rear pad that can be used for both street and track to avoid swapping the rear pads on top of the front ones at the track?
I have seen recommendations of rear PFC97 to front PFC01 .... but you would not want to run PFC97 on the street.

> Cost. PFC pads are very expensive. Just as an example, they are nearly 45 - 50% higher priced than Ferodos (and Ferodos are expensive to begin with).

.... and that's not even debating individual properties one of pad against another.


Alex

[glenspeed]

Hi Glen,

Yes, from what I read they are suppose to be paint/rim friendly. But, that's just one of several considerations when choosing the best overall street/track pad combo for individual use ....

> is there a good matching front street pad for PFC01? Are the street ones quiet, low dust and good braking performance for street use?
PFC01 are ceramic pads and generally it is not recommended to mix ceramic ones with non-ceramic.

> is there a good rear pad that can be used for both street and track to avoid swapping the rear pads on top of the front ones at the track?
I have seen recommendations of rear PFC97 to front PFC01 .... but you would not want to run PFC97 on the street.

> Cost. PFC pads are very expensive. Just as an example, they are nearly 45 - 50% higher priced than Ferodos (and Ferodos are expensive to begin with).

.... and that's not even debating individual properties one of pad against another.


Alex

I had the Carbotech XP9's all around and used them on the street too. I'm leaving the XP9's in the rear and putting the PFC01's in front, so that should work well. I expect dust and squeal, but I can live with that...
I had no issues and loved the XP9's in front, but have heard only great things about the PFC01's so wanted to try them as my front XP9's were toast.

[Cabrio]

I had the Carbotech XP9's all around and used them on the street too.
How is the initial bite when they are cold?

[alexm520]

How is the initial bite when they are cold?

Trev,

F.Y.I. Carbotech has stopped making XP9 for more than a year. I would imagine most vendors have sold off their old XP9 inventory by now.

The current line up is XP8, XP10, XP12. You don't want to use XP8 at Mosport (my friend like them as dual purpose on his E36 M3 at Cayuga until he drove off the track - no damage thank god - because they could stop the car at Corner 5A. Granted he is a very fast driver). If you move up to XP10, Carbotech suggests XP8 or XP10 for rear to keep the proper brake bias.


Alex.

[glenspeed]

How is the initial bite when they are cold?

excellent. when you have a transfer layer it's even better, way more than regular street pads actually. I've driven the car on some winter days and there's no issue of cold performance.

[Yorgi]

I'd just like to chime in that I think most track junkies should seriously consider brake ducting. There are two huge advantages to ducts:

1) You can use a much less aggressive track pad that has a lower max operating temp. This usually means a less expensive pad and also a pad that will work OK at low/street temps. (ie the pad will not eat rotors when cold and will actually stop when cold) Great for those times when you are lazy and don't fell like swapping pads before and after track days. Most less aggressive pads are also easy on rotors.

2) I found pads last 2x or 3x longer with ducting. The cooler temps mean no vaporizing pads or pad transfer to rotors. Plus your rotors will last a lot longer too and won't warp.

They ducts will probably pay for themselves in a single season. (or less if you are a rabid track-dog like webbie)

If you are using a super aggressive pad that only works at extreme temps then ducting is less important.

[glenspeed]

ducting is a good thing. that's the next thing on my list...

[alexm520]

I'd just like to chime in that I think most track junkies should seriously consider brake ducting. There are two huge advantages to ducts:


All valid points.

I was waiting for you to sell yours after getting BBK and offer to buy if you helped with the install :D :D But you decided to keep it :crying:

What about during the winter? Do you remove it or just drive with it?


Alex
.

[glenspeed]

All valid points.

I was waiting for you to sell yours after getting BBK and offer to buy if you helped with the install :D :D But you decided to keep it :crying:


Alex
.

funny I was waiting for the same thing! :crying:

[Yorgi]

LOL...I pull the BBK for the winter because the calipers don't fit under my 17" M68 wheels. It's a great way to force yourself to change the brake fluid every 6 months.

The brake duct backing plates I leave on. I just disconnect the hoses in the off season.

I hope to keep the BBK for the next car, but the CF backing plates will get parted out once I sell the car in the next month or so.

[glenspeed]

I hope to keep the BBK for the next car, but the CF backing plates will get parted out once I sell the car in the next month or so.

They're mine! woot

[STALKER]

Took my wheels off the other day, and looks like Im gonna need new front rotors soon. Gonna be big $$$. Good news is that my pads have been holding up extremely well considering the amount of street and track use they have on them.
DS2500 is a great pad.

[glenspeed]

Took my wheels off the other day, and looks like Im gonna need new front rotors soon. Gonna be big $$$. Good news is that my pads have been holding up extremely well considering the amount of street and track use they have on them.
DS2500 is a great pad.

you can just buy the rotor ring and mount them onto your existing hats. still not cheap, but cheaper than buying brand new rotors complete...

[Mlighted]

Check rotor rings here (if you haven't yet) -

http://www.racingbrake.com/Rotor_Rings_s/4355.htm

Best price I've seen so far. There also was thread on m3forum
refering to them.


Took my wheels off the other day, and looks like Im gonna need new front rotors soon. Gonna be big $$$. Good news is that my pads have been holding up extremely well considering the amount of street and track use they have on them.
DS2500 is a great pad.

[Mlighted]

Here are words of wisdom from Dave -
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=2310598&postcount=23

[STALKER]

Here are words of wisdom from Dave -
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=2310598&postcount=23
Thanks for the link.
Im still pricing diff places out.
I think I can make the pads and rotors work till the end of summer though.

[glenspeed]

btw, since I put the PFC 01's on for Fastlaps, I've noticed they are incredibly torquey, much more so than the XP9's. They also squeal alot on the street, but it's a different pitched squeak than other pads like Hawk or Carbotech. More of a wooden squeal rather than the typical high pitch metallic squeal.

On the street, pushing on the brake pedal maybe a few milimetres will stop the car...:eek:

anyways, looking forward to seeing what these will do on the track. They really feel torquey and wonder how they will hold up compared to the XP9's. my guess is much better, but we'll see.

[Mlighted]

Somewhat pad related question - do I have to visually check thickness of pads
on BBK. I assume stock pad thickness sensor doesn't work with BBKs, and
gets detached, right ?

[glenspeed]

Somewhat pad related question - do I have to visually check thickness of pads
on BBK. I assume stock pad thickness sensor doesn't work with BBKs, and
gets detached, right ?

always a good idea to check periodically, especially before a track day and after. also since it's so quick and easy to remove pads on the BBK, might as well take them out and really give them a look.

[STALKER]

Somewhat pad related question - do I have to visually check thickness of pads
on BBK. I assume stock pad thickness sensor doesn't work with BBKs, and
gets detached, right ?
Your brake pad sensor does not work with a BBK, so visual inspection is the way to go.

[Mlighted]

Thanks a lot. Will do that.


always a good idea to check periodically, especially before a track day and after. also since it's so quick and easy to remove pads on the BBK, might as well take them out and really give them a look.

[glenspeed]

so finally had the PFC 01's in at the track and I can say they performed amazing.

on OEM ZCP rotors

much improved torque over the Carbotech XP9's. Yorgi, since you're a fan of high torque, this is the pad for you. So much more torque than the XP9's that I had to adjust the pedal modulation to account for them.

Fantastic initial bite and excellent fade resistance. bit harder to modulate as the bite is so aggressive, but you can adjust for that as well.

no glazing or deposits so far.

dust seems to be no more than XP9's

squeals very badly in the street when no transfer layer is on the disks

overall this pad is a huge winner and no reason why I wouldn't keep going with this pad.

[STALKER]

so finally had the PFC 01's in at the track and I can say they performed amazing.

on OEM ZCP rotors

much improved torque over the Carbotech XP9's. Yorgi, since you're a fan of high torque, this is the pad for you. So much more torque than the XP9's that I had to adjust the pedal modulation to account for them.

Fantastic initial bite and excellent fade resistance. bit harder to modulate as the bite is so aggressive, but you can adjust for that as well.

no glazing or deposits so far.

dust seems to be no more than XP9's

squeals very badly in the street when no transfer layer is on the disks

overall this pad is a huge winner and no reason why I wouldn't keep going with this pad.
Cost?? Did you do all 4 corners?

[GeoS]

Hey Glen, sounds like a great pad!

I've been considering these also. Looking for a better pad to go with R comps in the future. Right now I've got Hawk plus and I run out of tires before running out of brakes. D'OH!

How are the PFC 01's when cold (i.e. would it be possible to drive to the track with them)? Does the squeal go away after some use?

[glenspeed]

Hey Glen, sounds like a great pad!

I've been considering these also. Looking for a better pad to go with R comps in the future. Right now I've got Hawk plus and I run out of tires before running out of brakes. D'OH!

How are the PFC 01's when cold (i.e. would it be possible to drive to the track with them)? Does the squeal go away after some use?

I've got the XP9's in the rear.

PFC's are perfectly fine cold, no issues with stopping or anything, in fact too torquey for the street but I'm too lazy to swap them.

squeal may go away after the transfer layer. I'll have to drive the car during the week to find out. Definately before the transfer layer, tons of squealing. more like squeaking than squealing actually.

[glenspeed]

Cost?? Did you do all 4 corners?

$229 US from Bimmerworld. just fronts as the rear XP9's have tons of life left.

[fayraree]

Hmmm...this thread will be my friend over the winter!!! :D

[RagingLamb]

I got to try out XP8s in the rear and PFC06s in the front, on stock rotors.

The PFC06s are excellent pads, bite and torque feel better than XP8s. But surprisingly, these pads do not squeal as much. Or it could be that the XP8s have damaged my hearing and I can no longer hear any squeals.

The PFC06s are described as having slightly lower or equal coefficient of friction as the 01s, with less torque, roughly equal bite, but better pad and rotor wear.

The new PFC07 is supposed to have the highest coefficient of friction of all the PFC pads, but I have not seen actual coefficient of friction numbers for these pads. Anyone have any ideas what these are?

[STALKER]

Mintex Xtreme Motorsport Pads

coefficient of friction=.50-.55 range.
Rotor friendly-Yes
List price is $334.75 front and $244.75 rear, but Im sure you can them cheaper, this price was directly from AP Racing.
Fade Temp=1300F.
Paint Killer=No.

[Yorgi]

Mintex Xtreme Motorsport Pads

coefficient of friction=.50-.55 range.
Rotor friendly-Yes
List price is $334.75 front and $244.75 rear, but Im sure you can them cheaper, this price was directly from AP Racing.
Fade Temp=1300F.
Paint Killer=No.Added them to the initial post. Could not find pricing on them for OEM M3 size, but they do/did make them for the M3 according to charts I found.

From what I've read they are a very good dual purpose pad but I also saw a few places mention that they have been discontinued.

[STALKER]

How many of you guys are running PFC01s??
I have a track event at Road Atlanta in June and need a set of track pads. The E90 M3 is too heavy to run on dual purpose pads I think, and I don't want to take any chances on a high speed circuit like Road Atlanta.

Should I go PFC01s or something else??? Im afraid the high torque might throw me off, or is it a good thing?

Anyone run Cobalt pads?

[webbie]

check out PFC06? less aggresive, last longer...

[STALKER]

check out PFC06? less aggresive, last longer...
Have you tried them yourself?
I will look them up.

What about PFC 97??

I think the PFC01 will have to much torque for me at this time.

Also, is it ok to use the PFC06 or 97s front and rear?
Thanks.

[glenspeed]

How many of you guys are running PFC01s??
I have a track event at Road Atlanta in June and need a set of track pads. The E90 M3 is too heavy to run on dual purpose pads I think, and I don't want to take any chances on a high speed circuit like Road Atlanta.

Should I go PFC01s or something else??? Im afraid the high torque might throw me off, or is it a good thing?

Anyone run Cobalt pads?

As you are running a BBK, the 01's might be overkill....i gotta think you would be good with '06s or 97's

[STALKER]

As you are running a BBK, the 01's might be overkill....i gotta think you would be good with '06s or 97's

Ya, I got the AP BBK.
I think the 97s front and rear might be good for my skill level.
I have to look into if they are paint friendly or not, since on Yorgi's spreadsheet it states they are not.

[STALKER]

Seems like PFC97s are somewhat corrosive.
Can't find PFC06, so I think I might go with Pagid Yellows.

Any feed back on Pagid Yellows?

[jaym3smg]

Can't find PF06's? Go to zeckhausen.com, order them there. Took them 2 days to get to my US box.

I have used 01's and 06's, you lose VERY little bite with the 06's but they apparently last a lot longer, we'll be testing that theory this year as I swapped my fronts for 06's late last year. Got new 06 rears last week as well. The 01's finally wore out (took 2 years though).

I've heard the 97's aren't all that great. Stick with the 01's and 06's. IMO you can't have too much bite on the brakes, I'd rather have a lot of bite that I have to modulate than be in a situation where I brake too late and don't have the braking force to quickly slow down before that big concrete wall.

-J

[STALKER]

Can't find PF06's? Go to zeckhausen.com, order them there. Took them 2 days to get to my US box.

I have used 01's and 06's, you lose VERY little bite with the 06's but they apparently last a lot longer, we'll be testing that theory this year as I swapped my fronts for 06's late last year. Got new 06 rears last week as well. The 01's finally wore out (took 2 years though).

I've heard the 97's aren't all that great. Stick with the 01's and 06's. IMO you can't have too much bite on the brakes, I'd rather have a lot of bite that I have to modulate than be in a situation where I brake too late and don't have the braking force to quickly slow down before that big concrete wall.

-J

From what I have found, they don't make the PFC06 for my AP BBK.
I keep looking though. If not, then I think Im going to go with Pagid Yellows, RS29s.

[webbie]

RS19 and RS29 are VERY VERY similiar, nobody can tell the difference, both are endurance pads and should be on par with PPC06.

[STALKER]

RS19 and RS29 are VERY VERY similiar, nobody can tell the difference, both are endurance pads and should be on par with PPC06.

Good stuff. I think its what I will go with then. Do you know where they have the best price on Pagid pads Webbie?
Thanks gents.

[jaym3smg]

From what I have found, they don't make the PFC06 for my AP BBK.
I keep looking though. If not, then I think Im going to go with Pagid Yellows, RS29s.

Oh heh heh... Sorry forgot about BBK... I unfortunately don't have to deal with that. But man PF01's or 06's on a BBK... that would bite HARD.

-J

[STALKER]

Seems like I can only find front Pagid Yellow RS29 or RS19 pads.
Is it a bad idea to only change the fronts? The Mintex pads that come with my AP kit are good for up to 1350F supposedly. But the Pagids will also have a more torque though.

I can get PFC01s all the way around but wow are they $$$$$ and Im a little concerned about how torquey they are again. PFC06s only come for the front.

At this point, Im considering just going out with the pads the APs came with and then take it from there for the next event.

[webbie]

Give Craig at http://rennstore.com/ a call.

He sells Pagid and recently PFC pads. His price is better than what is posted on his website. Not sure about BMW, but his PFC price is similar/less than Pagid price for Porsche.

[330DTM]

Can anyone share experiences with the PF06's in terms of if they squeal a lot and how its like driving to and from the track with them on?

I had no choice last weekend but to use a set of used HP+ I picked up a year ago, since I signed up for the track last minute and I couldn't decide what pad to get. The HP+ are really annoying right now on streets, they squeal like crazy now. Haven't had time to put the OEM's one back on.

[330DTM]

Oh yeah, considering I'm running street tires for now (may run R-comps once they wear out) is it okay if I run PF06 fronts and OEM rears for the track, or should I just keep the HP+ for the rears? I'm going to get rid of the HP+ fronts for sure. The reason I ask if because I'm not sure if I can fork out for both front and rear PF06's now.

[carboy88]

A good article on brake pads and different applications... thought I'd share.

http://www.essexparts.com/learning-center/cat/brake-pads/post/choose-brake-pads

[jabela]

I'm currently running Axxis Ultimates for dual-use on my 325ci and I've outgrown them. They're leaving lots of deposits on my rotors (front and rear) at the track, resulting in lots of shimmying and squirming under hard braking.

What's a good upgrade from the Ultimates that I should be looking at? Ideally dual purpose, but I'm okay with swapping the pads out for track days if I have to. It'd be great if they weren't hugely expensive either.
I may also pick up that brake ducting kit from Dipal.
I've read through the entire thread but there I didn't see a relevant answer.
The DS2500 look promising, but are they aggressive enough?
How about the Carbotech Panther? Or the Hawk HT-14?
Also, does anyone have any race pads that fit a 325ci that I can buy to wear off these deposits?
Cheers.

[carboy88]

I'm currently running Axxis Ultimates for dual-use on my 325ci and I've outgrown them. They're leaving lots of deposits on my rotors (front and rear) at the track, resulting in lots of shimmying and squirming under hard braking.

What's a good upgrade from the Ultimates that I should be looking at? Ideally dual purpose, but I'm okay with swapping the pads out for track days if I have to. It'd be great if they weren't hugely expensive either.
I may also pick up that brake ducting kit from Dipal.
I've read through the entire thread but there I didn't see a relevant answer.
The DS2500 look promising, but are they aggressive enough?
How about the Carbotech Panther? Or the Hawk HT-14?
Also, does anyone have any race pads that fit a 325ci that I can buy to wear off these deposits?
Cheers.

Weren't we just talking about the ULT pad deposits the other night? :yak:

I was running the DS2500s and they are a decent dual-purpose pad. Qreus is on that setup too. You can leave the ULTs on in the rear, they don't get hot enough to leave deposits.

[jabela]

Weren't we just talking about the ULT pad deposits the other night? :yak:

I was running the DS2500s and they are a decent dual-purpose pad. Qreus is on that setup too. You can leave the ULTs on in the rear, they don't get hot enough to leave deposits.
Yep, exactly what you said happened to you, happened to me. I actually did get deposits on the rears as well, though not as bad. It could be that since I have much smaller front rotors, that my rears do more work than yours do. It could also be that the fronts were fading, forcing the rears to do more work.
DS2500 on the front might be enough, since they'll be doing more work than the rears.
Maybe I'll just get the fronts for now and get rears if i'm still seeing issues on the back.

Where's a good place to get the DS2500?

[carboy88]

Where's a good place to get the DS2500?

I got mine from Zeckhausen. Bimmerworld used to carry them at a better price, but then they stopped... You can also look at Hawk HT-10s which I think are comparable (they are quite noisy when cold but have a better cold bite IMO). Dipal can probably hook you up locally with those.

[jabela]

Here's some great info from raceshopper.com

Maximum
Temperature (F) Pad Compound Selection Guide*

Up to 750F Most Semi-Metallic Street Pads including:
- Ferodo DS2500
- Hawk HPS
- Hawk HP Plus
- Hawk DTC-05
- PFC Carbon Metallic
- PFC Z-Rated
- Rofren Ultima Street
- Rofren Euro-Select
- Rofren Street Performance

750F -1000F Street Performance / Limited Track
use pads including:
- Ferodo DS2500
- Ferodo 4003
- Hawk HP Plus
- Hawk Black
- Hawk DTC-30
- Hawk DR-97
- PFC Z-Rated
- Rofren Street Performance
- Raybestos ST-38
- Raybestos ST-43

1000F -1250F Intermediate Race Pads including:
- Ferodo DS3000
- Ferodo DS1-11
- Hawk Blue 9012
- Hawk MT4 Blue
- Hawk HT10
- Hawk DTC-60
- Hawk DTC-70
- PFC 97 Compound
- PFC 01 Compound
- Raybestos ST-42
- Raybestos ST-43
1250F+

Ultra-High Temperature Race Pads including:
- Ferodo DS3000
- Ferodo DS3000+
- Ferodo DS3000 Endurance
- Ferodo DS1-11
- Hawk HT10
- Hawk HT14
- Hawk HT15
- Hawk DTC-60
- Hawk DTC-70
- PFC 01 Compound
- PFC 03 Compound
- Raybestos ST-41
- Raybestos ST-42
- Raybestos ST-43

*The preceding information is provided as a general guide only.
Each pad compound may have other substantially varying factors such as friction level (mu) and torque characteristics.
These factors, in addition to operating temperature range, should be considered when making pad compound choices for your specific application.

[jabela]

Here's some info on Hawk Pads.
http://a.imageshack.us/img687/7640/hawkbrakepadcomparison.png (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/hawkbrakepadcomparison.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Yorgi]

That chart is awesome. Nice to see a single chart show both cold, hot and optimum temps plus friction scale. I wish all manufacturers would make specs like this available to the public.

[jabela]

That chart is awesome. Nice to see a single chart show both cold, hot and optimum temps plus friction scale. I wish all manufacturers would make specs like this available to the public.
Yep, it would be nice if they all did. From the chart the DTC-30 look very promision for dual use pads. Others say they're great, but they reportedly dust quite a bit.
Here's some STI, Lotus, and EvoX guys who tried them.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-braking/165093-dtc30-new-racing-compound-hawk-family-review.html
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f172/hawk-dtc-30-front-rear-excellent-replacement-stock-pads-84922/
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30500

[glenspeed]

Was just reading James Clay's review of the PFC06 pad and looks like it is more of an enduro pad. PFC01 still has the ultimate bite and torque, but if you're looking for a longer lasting pad with slightly less torque, the PFC06 seems like a good choice. I loved the PFC01's so will probably stick with them again this season...