changing ATF

[christyles]

It's maintenance time and I'm changing out my ATF.

How much ATF is needed when changing it.

I'll be using Redline D4ATF.

Thanks.

Lined up for this weekend:
brake fluid change
coolant flush
microfilter replacement
oil change
fuel filter change and complete drain of fuel
ignition coil replacement
sparkplug replacement
battery replacement

[Caddyshk]

It's maintenance time and I'm changing out my ATF.

How much ATF is needed when changing it.

I'll be using Redline D4ATF.

Thanks.

Lined up for this weekend:
brake fluid change
coolant flush
microfilter replacement
oil change
fuel filter change and complete drain of fuel
ignition coil replacement
sparkplug replacement
battery replacementDid you get a battery?

[my0gr81]

It depends how you do it. If you just open the drain plug, let it drain out and fill it up, then about 1.5l should do. That really doesn't help though. The DIY way is to buy the AT Filter kit, remove the pan cover and do it according to this link:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/E36-Tranny_Fluid_Auto/E36-Tranny_Fluid_Auto.htm
Note that this is applicable to E46 as well.

This doesn't do a full flush, but is a good maintenance step. The other thing to remember is that BMW used either ZF or Getrag transmissions, and even between the same model of transmission, the OEM used different types of ATF fluid. If you don't do a full flush, then some of the old fluid is still in there and you don't want to mix fluids as that can cause premature failure, defeating the purpose of the maintenance. I posted a link a while ago that had a list of transmissions and the fluid type that went with them, I have the PDF at home, so can't get it to you until tonight.

[audiophilia]

Might cruise over...when you starting?

[Yorgi]

I would let someone like Bavarian Motors do it the proper way. They hook up a machine to a line leading to the ATF fluid radiator and suck out the old fluid and pump new fluid into the system while the car is running. This guarantees a 100% flush.

I think any other method gets only half the fluid out since a lot of remains in areas you cannot drain, so it's almost pointless.

If you do drop the ATF oil pan, don't forget to replace the filter while you are in there.

[Slke46]

How much does this type of flush usually cost Yorgi? I was quoted like $700 at one shop...

[Yorgi]

How much does this type of flush usually cost Yorgi? I was quoted like $700 at one shop...$700 for fluid!?!? You can rebuild a tranny for $1,500!

I think they only charge $150 to do it at Bavarian. (416)479-1769 - 7634 Woodbine Ave.

[Bartacus]

This might be helpful (just found it on Fanatics today):

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=388511

Particulary, this post:
I thought I would throw out some information I found on the horror stories of transmission flushes killing transmissions. Granted, it won't do much good, since on the internet each schmuck's opinion is just about as good as the next, but don't say I didn't give ya nothin'....

I talked with some guys that work in a BMW/Volvo independant shop. This works out well, considering I have 2 BMWs and a Volvo. Go fig. We had 30 mins to kill as I had the volvo hooked up to the AC vacuum machine, so I talked with some of the techs about auto transmission flushes. They said that on most of the transmission work they do, weather it be just a fluid replacement, a gasket replacement, a valve body, etc, that the higher mileage transmissions will have a layer of sludge on the pan thats made up of what they believe is the wearable parts in the transmission. In other words, the bottom of the pan has a layer of metallic bits and slivers, as well as old oil.

Their procedure, and this is a specialty european shop, is to pull the pan, clean the pan and magnet thoroughly, replace the filter, refill the trans, and THEN flush the rest. The guy couldn't think of one time that this has caused a problem with a good transmissions. He has, however, seen a few times where a transmission wasn't "shifting right", they replaced the fluid hoping it would help, only to see the transmission go south within a few weeks. In other words, the trans was done before the trans fluid flush.

Now, these rumors didn't start up from nowhere, so what I (and the techs I talked to) believe is that there is a certain differentiation that needs to be made when you refer to a transmission flush. I think the problem lies in the shops that use power-flush machines that simply connect to the transmission lines and stir up that metallic-laden sludge at the bottom of the pan (Jiffy Lube, I'm lookin at you).

Unfortunately, we really don't have a big database of cases to pull from to determine a correlation between failures and power-flushes versus failures and drain-clean-refill-flush procedures, but I think the fact that most people who simply drain-refill are fine says a lot to support my diagnosis. On top of that, multiple drain-refills not doing any damage show that the fluid itself really isn't a contributing factor.

Take my advice for what its worth, but MY answer as to "Should I flush the trans?" is "Yes, after you've cleaned the pan, the magnet, and replaced the filter. Alternatively, you could clean the pan, the magnet, replace the filter, and then drain/refill 2/3 times, its no different.

Cliffs:

Sludge in bottom of pan is full of metal wear in transmission.
Power-flush stirs up metal, gets in everything, bad
Proper way to flush - drop pan, clean pan, magnet, replace filter, THEN flush or multiple drain/refills.
Don't go to places that use machines for trans flushes.

I've got 134,000 on my step and I'm considering this too. But I keep thinking "if it ain't broke....".

Bart

[my0gr81]

...

I've got 134,000 on my step and I'm considering this too. But I keep thinking "if it ain't broke....".

Bart
:Idunno: Do you change engine oil?

[Yorgi]

:Idunno: Do you change engine oil?Big difference. The tranny oil is not subjected to internal combustion. BMW says the ATF should last the lifetime of the tranny, but does not recommend you try that with engine oil.

The quote in Bartacus' post makes sense to me. If I did decide to ever change the ATF in any of my cars I would now pull the pan to clean it and change the filters and then do a full power-flush.

[Bartacus]

:Idunno: Do you change engine oil?
Well duh! Of course. :) But not many people change tranny fluid on a regular basis. Like I said, 134000KMs on my step tranny with no ATF changes and I have ZERO problems. Like most people though, I'm a bit leery of "lifetime" fluid, and I hear even BMW has now changed their stance and is saying change it at 100,000KM (but thats just what I read on Fanatics, could be B.S.).

Bart

[my0gr81]

BMW didn't change to the "Lifetime Fluid" until they came up with the Maintenance Included program. Like all items that involves moving components that generate friction and require lubrication, the lubrication medium gets contaminated with the materials released by friction itself, but also by condensation due to temperature shifts.

To each their own as far as maintenance is concerned. But the whole point of maintenance is to delay damages to components by reducing wear and tear. Waiting for problems to develop or stating "If it ain't broke..." just means that one is willing to wait for something to fail and then repair it rather than perform the maintenance. There is really nothing wrong with that approach if one is looking at a high cost of maintenance for a low replacement or repair cost item, but an AT is not one of those items. Cost is about $4500 at the dealer, and anywhere from $1500 (in place rebuild) to $3000 (replacement at indy shop).

[Bartacus]

BMW didn't change to the "Lifetime Fluid" until they came up with the Maintenance Included program. Like all items that involves moving components that generate friction and require lubrication, the lubrication medium gets contaminated with the materials released by friction itself, but also by condensation due to temperature shifts.

To each their own as far as maintenance is concerned. But the whole point of maintenance is to delay damages to components by reducing wear and tear. Waiting for problems to develop or stating "If it ain't broke..." just means that one is willing to wait for something to fail and then repair it rather than perform the maintenance. There is really nothing wrong with that approach if one is looking at a high cost of maintenance for a low replacement or repair cost item, but an AT is not one of those items. Cost is about $4500 at the dealer, and anywhere from $1500 (in place rebuild) to $3000 (replacement at indy shop).
Or, maybe a step failure would convince me to swap a 6-speed manual into it. :D I know what your saying man. I've been thinking about a proper flush/ATF change for a while now. From what I'm reading, it isn't cheap, and you better use the proper fluid for your particular step tranny (different fluids for ZF vs. Getrag). The whole process scares the crap out of me! Since my 3 is my only car, if this flush ruins the damn tranny, I'm dead. Plus with no extra cash to replace it, the entire prospect of an AT flush gives me the willies. I probably shouldn't be so paranoid about this, but I might have smoked too much weed as a kid. :)

Bart

[my0gr81]

The AT Filter kit is about $50, fluid is another $50 from the dealer or about $20 on the aftermarket. Get the part # of the transmission and look up the right fluid from one of the BMW TIS/ETK. Like I said, I have a PDF at home that I will post up this evening. That leaves the decision to do a power flush and pay to have that done, or just do the drop pan, clean, refill and then drain/refill routine. The later is fairly cheap and beside using extra fluid is feasible for DIY.

http://parts.autopartsonlinecanada.com/parts/apocanada/wizard.jsp?year=2003&make=BM&model=325-I-003&category=J&part=AT+Filter+Kit

[Bartacus]

The AT Filter kit is about $50, fluid is another $50 from the dealer or about $20 on the aftermarket. Get the part # of the transmission and look up the right fluid from one of the BMW TIS/ETK. Like I said, I have a PDF at home that I will post up this evening. That leaves the decision to do a power flush and pay to have that done, or just do the drop pan, clean, refill and then drain/refill routine. The later is fairly cheap and beside using extra fluid is feasible for DIY.

http://parts.autopartsonlinecanada.com/parts/apocanada/wizard.jsp?year=2003&make=BM&model=325-I-003&category=J&part=AT+Filter+Kit

Thanks! I'd prefer the drop pan route, if that quote I read on Fanatics was accurate (it sure makes logical sense). I'd never DIY this though. I'm far too clumsy/absent minded. I'd kill the tranny for sure. It would be an independent bimmer mechanic doing it for sure.

EDIT: thanks for that link too! They actually stock parts for the Canadian spec 320i!! WOOHOO! Some company actually stocks parts for MY car! Unbelievable!

Bart

[my0gr81]

Here is the PDF:

http://home.socal.rr.com/tyrone/SD92-113.pdf

[J.D.]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone know whether or not it is recommended to flush the tranny fluid in manual cars? I was thinking of doing mine but wasn't sure if it is required, thanks

JD

[STALKER]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone know whether or not it is recommended to flush the tranny fluid in manual cars? I was thinking of doing mine but wasn't sure if it is required, thanks

JD
I do mine once each spring. You don't have to do that, but with track use and I drive it hard, better safe then sorry.

[Bartacus]

Here is the PDF:

http://home.socal.rr.com/tyrone/SD92-113.pdf
Thanks! But unfortunately that chart seems to be American spec only. No mention of my 320i. :( Oh well, the dealership *should* be able to get me that info. They have to be good for SOMEthing. :)

Bart

[christyles]

I was thinking of just using Redline D4 ATF....

[my0gr81]

Use whatever is the recommended fluid. The transmissions are usually built with specific viscosity requirements in mind and the control software adapts the shift points based on those properties. Mixing fluid changes those properties and may end causing more damage to the transmission or at the very least change the shift points thus affecting performance in unpredictable ways. You may get lucky and not have any problems whatsoever, but then again...

[who's ur daddy?]

Is there a DIY with pics anywhere?

[Slke46]

After reading this and finding out that I have the ZF tranny, I think I have changed my mind with changing my fluid from OEM to Redline ATF. The step runs good at the moment, I might just replace the fluid with OEM tranny fluid... Anyone need Redline ATF, I have quite a bit...

[my0gr81]

Here is a link to an AMSOIL "universal" fluid that claims to be compatible with DEXRON II, III and BMW 7045E as well as LT71141 (Esso) requirements. That basically takes care of 75% of the BMW transmissions except the ones that require Texaco fluid.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1746.pdf

The other thing I learned from my research, is that BMW transmissions have a fairly flat torque converter that doesn't generate as much heat as others and the software is optimized to keep the converter in a locked state. Couple that with a long life fluid and it somewhat justifies the "lifetime" rating as what is not specified is that any normal transmission is rated for 160K km MTBF anyways. I still think that regular maintenance extends the MTBF and can extend the life of the transmission so that the whole body of the car can rust around it.

[christyles]

I decided not to change it. Seeing as things are running fine... I'll leave as is. But thanks for the help and all the useful info.

I did however replace ignition coil #3 (thanks for the help Scooby & Jeff), car is running better than before.

Sill need to flush the other crap and change sparkplugs & fuel filter then she'll be good to go before next weekend. woot

[Peenz]

Is it really that complicated to change to the tranny fluid..?? Can't you just drain it and refill it and be done with it..? I want to do my tranny ( 5 sp manual )and Diff. too. Redline seems to be the way to go, but I can't find it anywhere. Where can you buy Redline locally..? Or do you have to go online ?
Can anyone do it..? I live in the east end, and I don't know of any places like Bavarian, or Mantis or Cross around here. Why is this so tough..??!! Help...!!

btw - how do I find out when the meets are..?? I'd like to meet some of the members, especially the more knowledgeable ones..!

[951kid]

btw - how do I find out when the meets are..?? I'd like to meet some of the members, especially the more knowledgeable ones..!


You can browse the "events & meets" section. :cool:

[Yorgi]

Is it really that complicated to change to the tranny fluid..?? Can't you just drain it and refill it and be done with it..? Yes, it is reasonably complicated. The #1 problem being a lot of the fluid is in the rad and other places where you cannot get it out during a drain.

[edit]Missed the fact that you have a 5spd. In that case it is no probs like Jeff said.

[christyles]

...

[Jeff 330CI]

Is it really that complicated to change to the tranny fluid..?? Can't you just drain it and refill it and be done with it..? I want to do my tranny ( 5 sp manual )and Diff. too. Redline seems to be the way to go, but I can't find it anywhere. Where can you buy Redline locally..? Or do you have to go online ?
Can anyone do it..? I live in the east end, and I don't know of any places like Bavarian, or Mantis or Cross around here. Why is this so tough..??!! Help...!!

btw - how do I find out when the meets are..?? I'd like to meet some of the members, especially the more knowledgeable ones..!



If your car is a manual it is very easy just pull the plug drain and refill. I use redline as well but you will have to change it every year. You will find redline at your local performance shops you need the redline ATF for your transmission.

Christyles is refering to an automatic being difficult to change.

[Slke46]

If anyone is interested in RedLine tranny fluid I have 3 bottles sitting in my garage that I'm not going to be using anytime soon. I have to use OEM fluid b/c the recommendation for the ZF tranny is only use BMW fluid.

[Peenz]

Thanks Yorgi, Christyles and Jeff, I appreciate the comments. One question though Jeff, if I use the Redline ATF why the need to change it every year..? BMW says its supposed to be "lifetime", so with the car at 130K, this should be it, no..??

[Peenz]

If anyone is interested in RedLine tranny fluid I have 3 bottles sitting in my garage that I'm not going to be using anytime soon. I have to use OEM fluid b/c the recommendation for the ZF tranny is only use BMW fluid.

I might be interested, but how do I know if my manual tranny is ZF or something else that Reline will work in..?? Thanks....

[Jeff 330CI]

The redline fluid does not have the same life expectancy as the oem fluid but it does help with the notchy/hard shifting.

[Slke46]

I might be interested, but how do I know if my manual tranny is ZF or something else that Reline will work in..?? Thanks....
There are some very useful links in this thread that you will have to go threw to figure it out. Thats how I found out about mine. You have auto or manual?

[Peenz]

I have a 5spd manual. Its a 2000 323Ci if that helps.
thanks

[who's ur daddy?]

I am just feeling so uncomfortable with the possibility that my tranny will blow. I'm sure those track days don't help either ... :D

Ordered the tranny filter kit and OEM spec oil from bavauto.com last week and should be here tomorrow or Monday.

Just don't trust any of the shops to take as much care as I think is needed, especially the dropping and cleaning the pan like the instructions say.

I've done oil changes and fuel filter changes before, but this will be my first tranny fluid experiment. Wish me luck!

[summit425]

I am just feeling so uncomfortable with the possibility that my tranny will blow. I'm sure those track days don't help either ... :D

Ordered the tranny filter kit and OEM spec oil from bavauto.com last week and should be here tomorrow or Monday.

Just don't trust any of the shops to take as much care as I think is needed, especially the dropping and cleaning the pan like the instructions say.

I've done oil changes and fuel filter changes before, but this will be my first tranny fluid experiment. Wish me luck!

so.. how was the result?

[e46bonestock]

I did my ATF change in Nov. My tranny is a GM, so I used DexVI, it's so much smoother than the lifetime crap they left in there. Changed the filter, cleaned up the cover. Changed the diff fluid also.

[gnome]

Found this SI on e46fanatics; I was going to change my fluid as there is a delay on cold start, shifting to drive (only when cold). Maybe I should have the dealer program the EGS? Recommendations?
Or should I have this done + change the ATF?

================================================== ======

A/T Controls - Delayed PARK - REVERSE Engagement
Notes
SI B 24 07 03
Automatic Transmissions

April 2008
Technical Services

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B24 07 03 dated November 2004.

[NEW] designates changes to this revision
SUBJECT
GM5: Delayed P to D Engagement on Cold Start

MODEL
E46 with GM5: 325iA, 325xiA, 325xiTA, 330xiA from 10/02 up to 12/03

E46 with GM5: 325CiA, 325CicA, 330iA, 330CiA, 330CicA, 330i (HP), 325iTA from 03/03 up to 12/03

E53 X5 3.0iA with GM5 from 10/02 up to 12/03
SITUATION
The customer may complain of delayed P to D engagement (2 to 30 seconds) during the first cold start in the morning.

CAUSE
Insufficient pressure boost for the C1 forward clutch during the first Park to Drive shift after extended (overnight) parking.

[NEW] CORRECTION
On a customer complaint basis only, reprogram the EGS control module using the "Manual entry"

Important: It is not necessary to replace the automatic transmission for this type of complaint.

[NEW] PROCEDURE
To reprogram the EGS control module using the "Manual Entry" method:

1. Connect a BMW approved battery charger to the vehicle.

2. Start a programming session, using the latest version of Progman, and select the appropriate series vehicle.

3. Select "Load Software" and answer "No" to the prompt if modules have been replaced.

4. Select: EGS / Programming / Manual Entry from the column on the right of the screen.

5. Enter the programmed and basic numbers from the listings below, beginning with the programmed number first.

IMPORTANT:
The basic and programmed control module numbers depend on the production model year of the vehicle (MY '03 or MY '04) and DME version (MS43 or MS45.1) in the case of the 325i. The vehicle's model year can be easily located in the VIN: the TENTH digit from the LEFT side indicates a production model year (e.g., in WBABW33424 PL29106, the tenth digit 4 indicates MY '04).

6. Enter the new part number of the programmed EGS control unit first, using the Progman screen keyboard.

Enter for MY '03 325i from 10/02 up to 03/03 (with MS43): 7 546 850

Enter for MY '03 325i from 03/03 up to 09/03 (with MS45.1): 7 546 838

Enter for MY '04 325i: 7 546 862.

Enter for MY '03 330i: 7 546 836.

Enter for MY '04 330i: 7 546 858.

Enter for MY '04 330i HP (Performance Package): 7 546 860.
NOTE: Performance Package (HP) 330i vehicles are equipped with a modified M54 engine (235 hp),modified suspension with a shorter rear axle ratio, and MSport body trim.

Enter for MY '03 325xi: 7 546 848.

Enter for MY '04 325xi: 7 546 872.

Enter for MY '03 330xi: 7 546 842.

Enter for MY '04 330xi: 7 546 866.

Enter for MY '03 X5 3.0: 7 546 834.

Enter for MY '04 X5 3.0: 7 546 856,

7. Enter the basic control unit part number at the next Progman screen keyboard entry.

Enter for MY '03 325i from 10/02 up to 03/03 (with MS43): 7 518 709

Enter for MY '03 325i from 03/03 up to 09/03 (with MS45.1): 7 526 396

Enter for MY '03 330i: 7 526 396

Enter for MY '04 325i, 330i and 330i (HP): 7 532 988

Enter for MY '03 325xi, 330xi and X5 3.0i: 7 518 709

Enter for MY '04 325xi, 330xi and X5 3.0i: 7 532 988,
8. Clear the adaptation values using the GT1 loaded with the latest diagnostic DVD.

[NEW] WARRANTY INFORMATION



Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.



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